February 19, 2010 07:44PM
Anyone know anything about the 34 horses seized in Alliston? I have offered space/resources for rehabbing etc. if needed...
Cheers all!
Cheers all!
Alliston horse Seizure?
Topic by SavingGrace
Reply by qhcuttingirl
February 19, 2010 10:54PM
no.....do you know who's farm?
Reply by p2c3d2
February 20, 2010 09:32AM
I haven't heard anything about that many horses in Alliston. I'll check with people I know up there and see what's up.
Reply by Gruff Pastures
February 20, 2010 09:47AM
I have emailed but no response yet. Can't figure out where they put the horses if they don't have a venue. I don't mind trucking up some supplies today or Sunday, after that we may be getting blizzards. (woo!)
Reply by Noodle
February 20, 2010 03:14PM
I have heard nothing....
Reply by SavingGrace
February 20, 2010 04:07PM
So I got more info from the director today. They cannot place the horses in foster homes until the proper legal steps/channels have been gone through. So they are keeping folks names and number for the event that they need fostering etc. Right now they horses are all together at a farm and they are asking for donations of hay, feed or cash to help with the upkeep.
Thats all I was told so far.
Thats all I was told so far.
Reply by Gruff Pastures
February 20, 2010 05:54PM
any idea where they want stuff dropped off?
Reply by SavingGrace
February 20, 2010 06:10PM
I think at the Alliston shelter... they will also pick things up. Not 100% sure where the shelter IS though.. lol The address is on their website which I can post here in a moment...
Reply by Gruff Pastures
February 20, 2010 06:37PM
I didn't think they had a shelter yet?
Reply by doublelfarms
February 20, 2010 07:48PM
Alliston isn't far from us, but I'm home sick and can't drive (or maybe not up to loading and unloading is more accurate 
)- Gruffy, let me know if you're going by and we'll see what we can rustle up for you to take with your stuff
LL
)- Gruffy, let me know if you're going by and we'll see what we can rustle up for you to take with your stuff
LL
Reply by SavingGrace
February 20, 2010 11:06PM
Wherever their offices and adoption place is... they are in the middle of building another I believe. Horses are on a private farm...
Reply by Sixhorses
February 20, 2010 11:19PM
I would spring for some hay, but have no way to get it there. I could probably get 100 bales or so.
Any suggestions? Should I contact them?
sixhorses
Reply by Gruff Pastures
February 21, 2010 08:28AM
SH it might be better to send $$ for hay. There's likely someone local who does large rounds or whatever ... I'm still waiting to hear about a drop off spot. (And I gotta go into work for the morning.)
Reply by JazzMan
February 21, 2010 11:49AM
Have just talked with my S-I-Law who is an Inspector with the SPCA (far away). She is going to try to dig up some info and let me know and I'll post whatever I get. I've checked EMG and the Alliston web-site (nothing yet in terms of location of farm needing help and supplies).
First the horses need food, water, care (I applaud all the people trying to step up!) then I for one would like to know why for a seizure of this magnitude - it SEEMS to be being left to a bunch of UNPAID VOLUNTEERS with no facility and no PR dept. to enable them to get the support they and the horses need!!
First the horses need food, water, care (I applaud all the people trying to step up!) then I for one would like to know why for a seizure of this magnitude - it SEEMS to be being left to a bunch of UNPAID VOLUNTEERS with no facility and no PR dept. to enable them to get the support they and the horses need!!
Reply by Gruff Pastures
February 21, 2010 01:55PM
I was wondering the same thing, Jazz. Our spca usually puts a lot of resources into improving conditions on site for large herds to avoid a seizure. (and they have paid staff and a facility, mind you cannot house livestock). Could be ADHS has this situation well organized, but are not able to communicate.
Reply by JazzMan
Reply by MBRA518
February 23, 2010 11:47AM
hmmmm
'While only one horse had to be euthanized, Higgins said they were in rough shape - even though it might not be obvious to a causal observer.
"It's deceiving because a lot of them have a fluffy winter coat right now," he said. "But some of them are pretty skinny."'
You'd think they would have taken pictures of those horses then.... I agree maybe a bit hard to capture in a photo with long coats - but the big full bum showing in pic 3 is not 'a long coat'.... Now maybe they were getting worse, and I'm sure they must had had good reason to get in there and do a seizure - but those pics are not going to get the donations flooding in - those are pretty well fed 'looking' horses to me...
'While only one horse had to be euthanized, Higgins said they were in rough shape - even though it might not be obvious to a causal observer.
"It's deceiving because a lot of them have a fluffy winter coat right now," he said. "But some of them are pretty skinny."'
You'd think they would have taken pictures of those horses then.... I agree maybe a bit hard to capture in a photo with long coats - but the big full bum showing in pic 3 is not 'a long coat'.... Now maybe they were getting worse, and I'm sure they must had had good reason to get in there and do a seizure - but those pics are not going to get the donations flooding in - those are pretty well fed 'looking' horses to me...
Reply by Gruff Pastures
February 23, 2010 01:21PM
They do look pretty good in those photos.
Reply by Giantpony
February 23, 2010 01:29PM
They don't look too bad in the pics, but who knows what's hiding under their winter woolies. It can be deceiving, but I do agree that those pics don't scream "donate hay, I'm starving!"
When I look at pic#1, I have an overwhelming desire to tell them to stop staring that horse down while pulling him forward.... heck, *I* would plant my feet if someone tried to get me to move forward like that too!
GP
When I look at pic#1, I have an overwhelming desire to tell them to stop staring that horse down while pulling him forward.... heck, *I* would plant my feet if someone tried to get me to move forward like that too!
GP
Reply by FalseImpression
February 23, 2010 01:58PM
Why oh why don't the OPP or police ask horse people to help load??? Sheesh, we understand the police officers are NOT horse people and they don't have to know it all... It reminds me of the clip about the horse falling off the trailer in TX and how they loaded him. Mind you that one did fall off a trailer so I can understand he would be reluctant to get back on, but still.... Found the video [www.khou.com]
Reply by MBRA518
February 23, 2010 02:07PM
Well FI - I've seem plenty of 'horse people' at shows doing a bang up job too..... It's often all I can do to just not look - I usually have an overwhelling urge to just grap the lead if I do lol. I never know what's worse - the improperly used bum ropes/whips/shovels... or the grass in hand 'here horsey horsey' LOL
It's often all I can do to just not look - I usually have an overwhelling urge to just grap the lead if I do lol. I never know what's worse - the improperly used bum ropes/whips/shovels... or the grass in hand 'here horsey horsey' LOLReply by Noodle
February 23, 2010 03:19PM
some police officers are horse people
Its possible that horse started to pull and then the officer turned to look back.
I was glad to see the condition of the horses was not as bad as I had thought, but they do look like they could be better. Its a slippery slope to be sure. I feel bad for the pony who got caught in the fence and had to be euthanized.
Toby himself looks like he took a roll in some fencing at some point in his life. He has slash-type scars on his face, neck and body. Glad he survived it.
Its possible that horse started to pull and then the officer turned to look back.
I was glad to see the condition of the horses was not as bad as I had thought, but they do look like they could be better. Its a slippery slope to be sure. I feel bad for the pony who got caught in the fence and had to be euthanized.
Toby himself looks like he took a roll in some fencing at some point in his life. He has slash-type scars on his face, neck and body. Glad he survived it.
Reply by MBRA518
February 23, 2010 03:35PM
From the article - the owner was not complying with orders (sounds like providing feed) so if that is the case I'm glad to see they were able to get in there before the horses were in dire need - yes it's unfortunate that the pony had to be PTS - but really - that itself doesn't say neglect to me - that sort of thing can and does happen even in the best run facilities.
in pic 3 the two horses on the left look like they 'may' be thin on the top line - but it may be just the lighting - when you see ole chubby butt there you assume it's lighting. Honestly - I don't see anything that can obviously use groceries in those pics (again hard to say with winter coats - but some are cubby well beyond what a winter coat can cover) - but only a small % of the horses are pictured.... just think it would have been good for PR/donations to show the bad ones - not the cubby ones.... I mean really if you just saw the pictures and no story you would not think neglect seizure.
in pic 3 the two horses on the left look like they 'may' be thin on the top line - but it may be just the lighting - when you see ole chubby butt there you assume it's lighting. Honestly - I don't see anything that can obviously use groceries in those pics (again hard to say with winter coats - but some are cubby well beyond what a winter coat can cover) - but only a small % of the horses are pictured.... just think it would have been good for PR/donations to show the bad ones - not the cubby ones.... I mean really if you just saw the pictures and no story you would not think neglect seizure.
Reply by FalseImpression
February 23, 2010 04:09PM
I don't think we can judge from a couple of pictures... Some people on EMG were there and said the horses were skinny... I 'll take their word over a picture.
Not many OPP officers are horse people... I know quite a few officers and none would know what to do with a horse... and they are in the rural areas!
Not many OPP officers are horse people... I know quite a few officers and none would know what to do with a horse... and they are in the rural areas!
Reply by JazzMan
February 23, 2010 05:02PM
The requirement is that the basic necessities be provided and from the article they were not - repeatedly and even when ordered to do so. The animals do not have to be extremely emaciated before action can be taken (thank god). That would be the inevitable result of such care, and it would also complicate and drive up the cost of rehab/after care - and some could even then be lost.
I'm glad they (finally) took the action they did - and glad that the many that complained were concerned/caring enough to do so. While ghastly photos do generate more interest/emotion (and therefore supplies/aid) - these 34 horses are still just as deserving of proper feed, water and care.
I'm struggling to look after 3 - can't imagine the resources required for 34!!
I'm glad they (finally) took the action they did - and glad that the many that complained were concerned/caring enough to do so. While ghastly photos do generate more interest/emotion (and therefore supplies/aid) - these 34 horses are still just as deserving of proper feed, water and care.
I'm struggling to look after 3 - can't imagine the resources required for 34!!
Reply by MBRA518
February 23, 2010 06:39PM
Don't get me wrong - I'm thrilled with the seizure, I know how hard it is to get anything like that done and I'm happy to see that the horses didn't have to be half dead this time - but think the PR/article could have been done better. As it is - with those pics - it's just fuel for nay sayers
Reply by Gruff Pastures
February 23, 2010 07:41PM
or these people, whom I still find alarming
[ruralrevolution.com]
someone on EMG made a comment about spca making seizures willy nilly, and it reminded me of them.
[ruralrevolution.com]
someone on EMG made a comment about spca making seizures willy nilly, and it reminded me of them.
Reply by MBRA518
February 23, 2010 10:15PM
Auh yes - Steve had quite an interesting conversation with 'the angry farmer' (what we dubbed a local member with anti gov info signs all over his property).... LOL yes I think there is reason a be a-feared of them I just know he rambled on about women bringing potato salad to church and the gov swooping in....???? ummmm ok? I think some of their ideas are valid - but the delivery could use some work - coming off crazy will never help your cause
I just know he rambled on about women bringing potato salad to church and the gov swooping in....???? ummmm ok? I think some of their ideas are valid - but the delivery could use some work - coming off crazy will never help your cause Reply by MBRA518
February 23, 2010 10:33PM
Yes I saw the post on EMG - that's exactly what I mean.
Also there was someone posting that they knew the owners... and she got jumped all over and someone had the nerve to say something like 'if you know these people where were you when this was happening'....
REALLY? WTH - why should one person be expected to step in for 34 horses????? what are people thinking? Aside from the fact she said she 'knows' them but didn't say what her relationship to them was- that person may have been helping the HS or whatever (she wasn't actually saying the horses shouldn't have been seized). There were other comments about 'where are the neighbours' - why the hell is it the neighbours responsibility? It never ceases to amaze me how people think when something like this happens. In some cases 'helping' will just delay the seizures or any intervention from the authorities.
Also there was someone posting that they knew the owners... and she got jumped all over and someone had the nerve to say something like 'if you know these people where were you when this was happening'....
REALLY? WTH - why should one person be expected to step in for 34 horses????? what are people thinking? Aside from the fact she said she 'knows' them but didn't say what her relationship to them was- that person may have been helping the HS or whatever (she wasn't actually saying the horses shouldn't have been seized). There were other comments about 'where are the neighbours' - why the hell is it the neighbours responsibility? It never ceases to amaze me how people think when something like this happens. In some cases 'helping' will just delay the seizures or any intervention from the authorities.Reply by FalseImpression
February 23, 2010 10:38PM
I read the comments on EMG and some were a bit over board. BUT, for once, the SPCA acted!!! I have heard of cases where hay and water were on the property, just not accessible to the very emaciated horses, but that was good enough for the SPCA. Now they are acting and they are criticized? As far as the article, PR etc., we all know the media can and does hit and miss the mark often! Probably someone who knows nothing about horses wrote the article and took the pictures.
As far as the potato salad and the church... it's food prep and safety! same with schools. I can see the point of rules and regulations. Who wants to deal with food poisoning?
As far as the potato salad and the church... it's food prep and safety! same with schools. I can see the point of rules and regulations. Who wants to deal with food poisoning?
Reply by Noodle
February 23, 2010 10:56PM
True FalseImpression- I remember checking out a place with a friend many years ago.
The horses were in HORRIFYING conditions.
The dog had blood coming out its bum, there was a foal lying on the ground gasping, there were mares/stallions/donkies all over the frikin place, the only shelter (which did have a mouldy hay pile in it, was closed off to the horses- except the ones chained to the wall.
It was so gross, and we called and we called and we called. and nothing was ever done. I think about it all the time.
As for potato salad, tsktsk, women should know better than to make that and bring it to church! What are they thinking!
The horses were in HORRIFYING conditions.
The dog had blood coming out its bum, there was a foal lying on the ground gasping, there were mares/stallions/donkies all over the frikin place, the only shelter (which did have a mouldy hay pile in it, was closed off to the horses- except the ones chained to the wall.
It was so gross, and we called and we called and we called. and nothing was ever done. I think about it all the time.
As for potato salad, tsktsk, women should know better than to make that and bring it to church! What are they thinking!
Reply by Adveristy
February 23, 2010 11:28PM
Noodle that sounds like a place around the corner from me. Horrible living conditions. Mud, bugs, black moldy hay, skinny mares and foals.....of course a stud horse running around, dogs in small dirty kennels.
Alot of people phoned the SPCA and for years nothing was done.
It was only about a year ago that they finally cleaned the place out. It took far to long.
Alot of people phoned the SPCA and for years nothing was done.
It was only about a year ago that they finally cleaned the place out. It took far to long.
Reply by MBRA518
February 24, 2010 10:29AM
lol I can't remember the total potato salad conversation -but it wasn't food poisoning based lol - it was something about gov taking some or something completely off the wall..... I hid - Steve had a hell of a time getting rid of him :insert evil giggle:
Reply by Gruff Pastures
Reply by JazzMan
February 28, 2010 06:48PM
Waaaa - I can't see it. EMG asking me to register, and I can't with my Yahoo mail address.
Reply by FalseImpression
February 28, 2010 06:48PM
Was the thread deleted?
Reply by Gruff Pastures
February 28, 2010 07:34PM
It was deleted. Essentially, the previous owner disagrees with the seizure and was asking for help to move all the horses next weekend. Laid out his whole game plan. He knows where they are now, which is too bad.
Reply by stonehedge
Reply by Gruff Pastures
February 28, 2010 07:55PM
Not the same one, Stoney. The thread I'm talking about was posted by the owner this morning, entitled "I HAVE A PROBLEM ... and I need help" , and it's gone now.
Reply by FalseImpression
March 1, 2010 02:26AM
Can he LEGALLY take his horses back? He may get himself in hotter water that way ....
and I am sure he'd have to pay back the HS for the care the horses have received... strange!
and I am sure he'd have to pay back the HS for the care the horses have received... strange!
Reply by Gruff Pastures
March 1, 2010 09:32AM
FI as far as I know there is a restraining order in place.
Reply by Giantpony
March 1, 2010 10:07AM
And restraining orders tend to mean very little to whackjobs, oops, I mean people... determined people.
GP
GP
Reply by MBRA518
March 1, 2010 11:40AM
Was the 'owner' posting by the guy refered to in the copied e-mail - or the other side of the dispute I wonder?
Reply by Gruff Pastures
March 1, 2010 01:05PM
Same man who had the horses removed from his care last weekend, is the man who posted that the seizure was illegal and he wanted help picking them all up and moving them this weekend.
Reply by FalseImpression
March 1, 2010 02:37PM
I am hoping nobody will put themselves at risk by helping him, no matter who is right. The court/police will have to decide!
Reply by p2c3d2
March 3, 2010 03:51PM
He (the horse owner) has called in all the troops. I belong to the Dufferin Landowners Association and he has contacted them. According to the owner, the SPCA has billed him over $9,000.00 of which less than $100.00 is for vet costs. I have issues with the SPCA so I'm not going to comment regarding the legality of the action until I hear more. But if this was an illegal seizure, then he should get the horses back. There are rules, and I hope that the police/court do what is legally right. Otherwise, we're all at risk is some super keen, PETA supporter thinks we're not looking after our animals, any animal. I have had the SPCA come driving down my laneway before because a cityit has called and complained that my beef cattle were mooing all the time and were dirty. DUH, we were weaning and it was spring, but they never came over and asked, just picked up the phone. That was a real boondoggle and took years to resolve. The SPCA felt they could come on the property at any time to inspect the cattle and all the animals even though it had been determined that they were in excellent condition and in no way suffering duress. And that was before the new animal rights bill. This is not a nightmare that I would wish on anyone. So be careful about making judgements before all the facts are in, if we hadn't been called by another neighbour, they would have had a truck in and taken the cattle. I wouldn't donate anything either, it sounds like he's being billed for all the donations.
Reply by FalseImpression
March 3, 2010 04:08PM
We know of many cases where the SPCA does not do anything when the animals are in distress. It is hard to believe they would act if the animals are fine. They don't need the extra expenses, the bad publicity, etc. and I cannot believe the SPCA would act outside of the law. Heck, their excuse for not acting is the law...
damned if you do and damned if you don't, depending on which side of the fence the critics/animals lovers (not necessarily activists) sit.
But there is never "smoke without a fire" somewhere....
damned if you do and damned if you don't, depending on which side of the fence the critics/animals lovers (not necessarily activists) sit.
But there is never "smoke without a fire" somewhere....
Reply by Giantpony
March 3, 2010 04:52PM
Please refrain from any comments about the legality of this or any other action on this forum.
And I'm quite sure there's more to this particular story that we will ever know... as I'm sure there must be more to your story p2c3d2, I have a really hard time believing that the SPCA would seize your cattle based on one phone call and without your knowledge... that just doesn't add up... perhaps I'm missing something.
Let's keep the heresay and rumours to a minimum.... it would be a shame if this thread had to be deleted.
GP
And I'm quite sure there's more to this particular story that we will ever know... as I'm sure there must be more to your story p2c3d2, I have a really hard time believing that the SPCA would seize your cattle based on one phone call and without your knowledge... that just doesn't add up... perhaps I'm missing something.
Let's keep the heresay and rumours to a minimum.... it would be a shame if this thread had to be deleted.
GP
Reply by Gruff Pastures
March 3, 2010 09:49PM
I hope the anti-spca agenda of your organization does not jump in and defend this guy automatically just to defeat the spca/humane society. Your group is part of the "rural revolution" who seems out to get the government....will you still go in guns blazing if it turns out he does not feed his horses, will you question what he's doing with 30-odd skinny unhandled horses? Or will you defend him because it's his god-given right to own these horses and do what he pleases with them? Or do you just want to win against the spca?
Reply by JazzMan
March 4, 2010 04:55PM
Geez p2 - I hope that you aren't associated with the same bunch of 'loons' that surfaced supporting the Manitoulin guy that was not providing proper care for all those Canadian horses...
Reply by Gruff Pastures
March 5, 2010 09:29AM
Dufferin landowners are an affiliate/member of the Ontario Landowners Association. I posted their website earlier in this thread, and yes they are the same group that supported the Manitoulin guy.
Reply by p2c3d2
March 5, 2010 02:14PM
I don't know anything about Manitoulin, every member of the OLA has their own "causes" and agendas. However what I do know is that the inspectors in and around Dufferin County will take your stock based on one phone call, because it's happened to two other people. One was an elderly man who was in his house when they came, and the other was a farmer who had gone to Florida in August (I asked why too) and the trucker they called happened to be a friend of both of us. It was only when the trucker pointed out that they had lots of grass and a pond, that the young woman relented. Maybe it's just in Dufferin. No, the DFA is not anti SPCA, they are anti unnecessary government interference. I will support any group or organization that works to, legitimately, either alleviate or prevent, cruelty and abuse. My issue with this group is that they have another agenda, and after all the press that the Toronto SPCA has received, I have to wonder how many more of this type of "organization" exists within the OSPCA. Maybe I'm a cynic, but there are still too many questions to be answered. Below is an excerpt from his appeal. I realize that it's biaised as it's his appeal, but this has been filed with the courts, therefore he'll have to have paperwork to prove what they're charging him. I tried, but couldn't italicize it.
----------
We respectfully submit thirty two purebred Tennessee Walking horses were removed by Ontario SPCA Agent (Edited to remove name). The attached Ontario SPCA “Cost of Removal” dated March 1, 2010, indicates veterinary costs (unspecified) for the horses from February 19 to March 1, 2010 were $94.50.
We respectfully submit (Edited to remove name) was not present during the removal.
We respectfully submit (Edited to remove name) bullied and intimidated (Edited to remove name) by threatening him with incarceration.
We respectfully submit Ontario SPCA Agent (Edited to remove name) mislead (Edited to remove name) with a recorded phone message left on (Edited to remove name) phone hours prior to removal of the horses.
“Hi (Edited to remove name), it’s (Edited to remove name) calling from the OSPCA. ….Just calling to let you know I am at the property. The horses have water. I’m not sure if you came by… anyways, they all have water available. I know you could probably make(it to) the property at 4:00 to 4:30 p.m…. let me know whether you have got hay coming or do you need me. The stallions seem to all have hay.”
The Ontario SPCA trailered thirty two TERRIFED purebred, gaited horses in the dead of winter, in the glare of the media immediately issuing a press release seeking donations and publicity for the Alliston & District Humane Society.
The Ontario SPCA trailered thirty two TERRIFED purebred, gaited horses in the dead of winter, in the glare of the media immediately issuing a press release seeking donations and publicity for the Alliston & District Humane Society.
March 1, 2010 (Edited to remove name) met with (Edited to remove name) offering to return one third of his horses, provided (Edited to remove name)transfers ownership effective immediately of twentytwo Tennessee Walking Horses to the Alliston & District Humane Society. Alternatively (Edited to remove name) offered to return all horses back to (Edited to remove name) upon receipt of a cheque within 5 days payable to the Alliston & District Humane Society in the amount of $9,024.82 plus $640.00 a day boarding costs after March 1, 2010.
---------
It just seems very odd to me. That seems like a lot of money for donated feed.
******* Edited to remove names.... DO NOT post identifying information (names, locations, etc) in relation to this or other cases. I've been remarkably patient and tolerant about this thread already, don't push your luck! *********
GP
Edited 1 times. Last edit at 03/05/10 04:17PM by Giantpony.
----------
We respectfully submit thirty two purebred Tennessee Walking horses were removed by Ontario SPCA Agent (Edited to remove name). The attached Ontario SPCA “Cost of Removal” dated March 1, 2010, indicates veterinary costs (unspecified) for the horses from February 19 to March 1, 2010 were $94.50.
We respectfully submit (Edited to remove name) was not present during the removal.
We respectfully submit (Edited to remove name) bullied and intimidated (Edited to remove name) by threatening him with incarceration.
We respectfully submit Ontario SPCA Agent (Edited to remove name) mislead (Edited to remove name) with a recorded phone message left on (Edited to remove name) phone hours prior to removal of the horses.
“Hi (Edited to remove name), it’s (Edited to remove name) calling from the OSPCA. ….Just calling to let you know I am at the property. The horses have water. I’m not sure if you came by… anyways, they all have water available. I know you could probably make(it to) the property at 4:00 to 4:30 p.m…. let me know whether you have got hay coming or do you need me. The stallions seem to all have hay.”
The Ontario SPCA trailered thirty two TERRIFED purebred, gaited horses in the dead of winter, in the glare of the media immediately issuing a press release seeking donations and publicity for the Alliston & District Humane Society.
The Ontario SPCA trailered thirty two TERRIFED purebred, gaited horses in the dead of winter, in the glare of the media immediately issuing a press release seeking donations and publicity for the Alliston & District Humane Society.
March 1, 2010 (Edited to remove name) met with (Edited to remove name) offering to return one third of his horses, provided (Edited to remove name)transfers ownership effective immediately of twentytwo Tennessee Walking Horses to the Alliston & District Humane Society. Alternatively (Edited to remove name) offered to return all horses back to (Edited to remove name) upon receipt of a cheque within 5 days payable to the Alliston & District Humane Society in the amount of $9,024.82 plus $640.00 a day boarding costs after March 1, 2010.
---------
It just seems very odd to me. That seems like a lot of money for donated feed.
******* Edited to remove names.... DO NOT post identifying information (names, locations, etc) in relation to this or other cases. I've been remarkably patient and tolerant about this thread already, don't push your luck! *********
GP
Edited 1 times. Last edit at 03/05/10 04:17PM by Giantpony.
Reply by Gruff Pastures
March 5, 2010 03:37PM
You could have XXXX'd his name out instead of posting it, we would have got the idea.
Should he get his horses back if he cannot feed them?
Should he get his horses back if he cannot feed them?
Reply by Giantpony
March 5, 2010 04:22PM
As Gruff mentioned, there was absolutely NO NEED to post names. That will not be tolerated here, the same way it was not tolerated on EMG.
I have better things to do than edit your damned post. This is my final warning. Anything further will just lead this this post being deleted.
If that's not clear enough and you have questions, email me. giantpony@gmail.com
I'll also take this opportunity to remind each poster that YOU are legally and ethically responsible for the content of your posts. Should there be any legal requests for information about your identity, all information you entered AND all your posts will be cheerfully handed over to the authorities so they may pursue the issue further with you.
If you find this policy offensive, please email me and I will gladly delete your user account so you can no longer post on the HonestJourney forum.
Now the weather is nice, everyone outside to play in the sunshine!
GP
I have better things to do than edit your damned post. This is my final warning. Anything further will just lead this this post being deleted.
If that's not clear enough and you have questions, email me. giantpony@gmail.com
I'll also take this opportunity to remind each poster that YOU are legally and ethically responsible for the content of your posts. Should there be any legal requests for information about your identity, all information you entered AND all your posts will be cheerfully handed over to the authorities so they may pursue the issue further with you.
If you find this policy offensive, please email me and I will gladly delete your user account so you can no longer post on the HonestJourney forum.
Now the weather is nice, everyone outside to play in the sunshine!
GP
Reply by Giantpony
March 5, 2010 04:27PM
And just one further thought, I'm still unconvinced that any division of the SPCA would seize animals based on ONE phone call. IF this is the case (and I emphasize the IF!) then your "fight" is not with the SPCA exactly, its with the 1 or 2 officers involved. I'm sure written formal complaints against these individuals with supporting documentation filed to the head office of the SPCA would certainly get the ball rolling.
However, call ME cynical, but I'd put money (big money that I don't have) on all those situations having MORE information to them than we are being led to believe.
It makes no sense since there's no legislation to support these alleged actions.
GP
However, call ME cynical, but I'd put money (big money that I don't have) on all those situations having MORE information to them than we are being led to believe.
It makes no sense since there's no legislation to support these alleged actions.
GP
Reply by Gruff Pastures
March 5, 2010 06:26PM
I'm wondering, since you are going to bat for this guy, if you have bothered to go look at them yourself?
Reply by crazyacres5
March 5, 2010 08:35PM
GP and Gruff, I have to agree here whole heartly with the fact that I have never seen the Feild Animal Rescue of the Humane Society ever walk in and seize animals without a very long protocal and step by step legal process before any seizure happens here in Canada , in fact , I am in the opinion that they sometimes give way to many chances for people to step up and do the right thing , before they go as far as a seizure.
We have been on the receiving end of some of those horses, and I'm certain that if some of them could have gotten to us a couple of weeks earlier and not had to wait thru the required process of seizure, their treatment and recovery would have been much easier for them and on us here, even in extreme cases of neglect like a young QH mare that came to us after have being caught in a wire fence for 3 days, then left wandering around in a feild with no treatment to hideous back leg, when it was so infected that she was in a dilirium, the Humane Society was called, they brought emergency Vet services with in the hour, the owners were told straight up ,that her care would have to be a daily task if she were to survive, 7 days later according to procedure they returned, the mare hadnt received her antibiotics, no bathing and changing of wraps and no pain med's given, again , they were given instructions of care and the emergency Vet called in , who made it very clear she had now lost approx. 200 lbs, the leg was serverely infected with Staff, and in immense pain, that if they didnt attend to the leg ,she would die !!! there was a third visit, mare was found down , the leg had exploded from the hoof to her knee, people not on the property and had left 4 days before to their cottage !!! it was then and only then that she arrived here, for some of the most intense care we have ever had to give a horse.. and even with that, the Humane Society tried to work with them, saving them any criminal charges of animal cruelty , if we paid the 2 Vet bill's they chalked up so that the Emergency Vets werent left holding the bag, and would to continue her care here. Needless to say !! Dolly has 3 years of happy recovery here and remarkably is a sound riding mare, that I'm certain Stoney or her Daughter has rode here on ocassion !! that is one story of many here, but all where played out to the owner of the animal in the same many. many chances way.
So, its been my experience that when the authorities step into a seizure, it's not done lightly and without a long protocal of legal step's... Any field Officers in Animal Rescue I have ever known, will go way up and above the call of duty to even try help the owners with cheap food arrangements, all kinds of helpful something. Sorry if this has affended anyones sensibilities, but it's my first hand experience that the Humane Society are the GOOD GUY"S.
We have been on the receiving end of some of those horses, and I'm certain that if some of them could have gotten to us a couple of weeks earlier and not had to wait thru the required process of seizure, their treatment and recovery would have been much easier for them and on us here, even in extreme cases of neglect like a young QH mare that came to us after have being caught in a wire fence for 3 days, then left wandering around in a feild with no treatment to hideous back leg, when it was so infected that she was in a dilirium, the Humane Society was called, they brought emergency Vet services with in the hour, the owners were told straight up ,that her care would have to be a daily task if she were to survive, 7 days later according to procedure they returned, the mare hadnt received her antibiotics, no bathing and changing of wraps and no pain med's given, again , they were given instructions of care and the emergency Vet called in , who made it very clear she had now lost approx. 200 lbs, the leg was serverely infected with Staff, and in immense pain, that if they didnt attend to the leg ,she would die !!! there was a third visit, mare was found down , the leg had exploded from the hoof to her knee, people not on the property and had left 4 days before to their cottage !!! it was then and only then that she arrived here, for some of the most intense care we have ever had to give a horse.. and even with that, the Humane Society tried to work with them, saving them any criminal charges of animal cruelty , if we paid the 2 Vet bill's they chalked up so that the Emergency Vets werent left holding the bag, and would to continue her care here. Needless to say !! Dolly has 3 years of happy recovery here and remarkably is a sound riding mare, that I'm certain Stoney or her Daughter has rode here on ocassion !! that is one story of many here, but all where played out to the owner of the animal in the same many. many chances way.
So, its been my experience that when the authorities step into a seizure, it's not done lightly and without a long protocal of legal step's... Any field Officers in Animal Rescue I have ever known, will go way up and above the call of duty to even try help the owners with cheap food arrangements, all kinds of helpful something. Sorry if this has affended anyones sensibilities, but it's my first hand experience that the Humane Society are the GOOD GUY"S.
Reply by grumpyoldman
March 5, 2010 10:44PM
I think it is about time to close this thread, all we hear from one certain person is trash talk about the SPCA, most of which can't be proven.
I'm not interested in the SPCA bashing about fund raising. Do the math... they can never "profit" from large seizures.
Lets move on an talk about horses, and horse welfare.
I seem to remember in this case, as with most others, a large animal veterinarian recommended the removal of the horses.
Reply by crazyacres5
March 6, 2010 12:35AM
Grumpy- I hear you, the notion of " profit " by large animal seizure is beyond ridiculous, as too many of us out here know the real cost of getting just 1 horse at a time back to good health, can you imagine the cost of 34 horses, just the transport, worming, vac's, and inital assements would be a staggering dent to most of us, thats without any agressive feeding or illness's to address..........profit !!!!..not likely
Reply by Gruff Pastures
March 6, 2010 08:05AM
Nah, shouldn't be closed, I want to know what happens with this one.
And things like...does the owner only have a problem with the "process" of the removal, and not the "why" part?
And if he gets them back will he feed them enough? Cuz I'm understanding from (his) posts on EMG that this breed of horse is supposed to look underweight, which may be more of a problem than $$.
And things like...does the owner only have a problem with the "process" of the removal, and not the "why" part?
And if he gets them back will he feed them enough? Cuz I'm understanding from (his) posts on EMG that this breed of horse is supposed to look underweight, which may be more of a problem than $$.
Reply by crazyacres5
March 6, 2010 10:06AM
Gruff, I know the TWH very well and have been at a reputable breeding farm in Brandon Manitoba thats claim to Fame is they have an original bloodline from Trigger " Roy Rogers Mount, and no , they dont look under weight when healthy, very heavy sturdy bone, they sort of bring to mind a Canadian to me, very rounded butt's and thick good shape, I dont know what kind of TWH he is talking about.
Reply by Gruff Pastures
March 6, 2010 02:42PM
Here's an editorial from the local paper, in response to the "fundraiser" standpoint:
[www.allistonherald.com]
Reply by crazyacres5
March 6, 2010 03:54PM
Touche Gruff, excellent article, its not often that I feel strongly and defensive about a particular org. but like I said before..My first hand experience has been nothing short of a respectful one for the Humane Society, and I'm thankful they are out there, I'm sure that thousands of animals drop thru the cracks, but at least we have someone out there with a net to catch a few, kinda like having a Sherriff show up in Dodge !!!! makes me sleep a littlebetter at night...
Reply by Giantpony
March 6, 2010 04:14PM
Nice I like the article.
A thought...
Its funny how people get up in arms about the OSPCA / Humane Society using high profile cases for donations and yet MANY other charities use similar tactics to encourage donations... I've rarely heard any complaints about the commercials of the African children starving, where you can see every rib, practically every bone in their body and their faces are covered with flies.
I'm having a hard time thinking of a charity that doesn't emotionally manipulate in some way or another, either through graphic images or fear inciting descriptions.
Never really occurred to me before.
GP
I like the article.
A thought...
Its funny how people get up in arms about the OSPCA / Humane Society using high profile cases for donations and yet MANY other charities use similar tactics to encourage donations... I've rarely heard any complaints about the commercials of the African children starving, where you can see every rib, practically every bone in their body and their faces are covered with flies.
I'm having a hard time thinking of a charity that doesn't emotionally manipulate in some way or another, either through graphic images or fear inciting descriptions.
Never really occurred to me before.
GP
Reply by JazzMan
March 6, 2010 04:28PM
I think I missed an article or two perhaps where the SPCA was receiving criticism - but totally agree with the support for the fundraising based on extreme or maybe not so extreme unfortunately, but hard to look at cases.
But its so basic and obvious - why would I send funds or campaign tirelessly for animals or children that looked to be doing better or the same as my own?
If I were in an organization tackling horrendous situations like abused animals or starving children - why would I choose to share with the unknowing public the best and healthiest? What makes them in need of our support is how bad it really is and could get.
That is why I get really upset when people lament that animal welfare groups and expose's only focus on 'the worst' of the examples...of course they (we) do - they are the examples that need to be recognized and addressed!! They are the horrific examples of what can and DOES happen! Sometimes I think people are so affected/offended by what they see that they somehow refuse to acknowledge it in a positive way - instead turning on the very organization that worked so hard to show the reality. (shakes head)
But its so basic and obvious - why would I send funds or campaign tirelessly for animals or children that looked to be doing better or the same as my own?
If I were in an organization tackling horrendous situations like abused animals or starving children - why would I choose to share with the unknowing public the best and healthiest? What makes them in need of our support is how bad it really is and could get.
That is why I get really upset when people lament that animal welfare groups and expose's only focus on 'the worst' of the examples...of course they (we) do - they are the examples that need to be recognized and addressed!! They are the horrific examples of what can and DOES happen! Sometimes I think people are so affected/offended by what they see that they somehow refuse to acknowledge it in a positive way - instead turning on the very organization that worked so hard to show the reality. (shakes head)
Reply by crazyacres5
March 6, 2010 05:09PM
Absolutley GP, and those organizations use all kinds of psycology in their advert's , right down to the time that they run them, they make sure they are on the screen when they are certain a family like mine is settled in for the night, bathed and cleaned , sitting in our comfy livingrooms with a big bowl of buttered popcorn and treat's, hoping it will hit our hearts with a sense of guilt and humanitarian obligation, and that's perfectly acceptable to us. So why do some people get so affended by the OSPCA commercial's that show animals in a terrible way, sure it may not make folks run to the phone and flip their wallets open, but just maybe it has spread enough awareness out there ,that its in the back of the mind of the person that has drove by the same farm of starving animals day after day , to make the call.
Reply by p2c3d2
March 27, 2010 09:04AM
Here is the latest correspondence that I have received regarding these horses. This is, of course, from the perspective of the aggrieved owner, and everyone is allowed to form their own opinions.
A person aggrieved by the OSPCA that has been served an order or has had animals removed, has but 5 days to appeal to the Animal Care Review Board. If the appeal is not made in time then the person has to appeal directly to the OSPCA and navigate through the multi layers of bureaucracy. There is no guarantee of their appeal as the OSPCA has no obligation to the person.
If the person fails to appeal by either process they stand and will to lose their ownership and property.
From the beginning of this event the Alliston District Humane Society has been "taking orders" (maintaining a list) from individuals whom are interested in acquiring my horses at a price starting at $500 per animal. A sizeable windfall no doubt.
I did initiate the appeal process in time and did attend and represent myself at the Board hearings.
It became readily apparent that the agents didn't have the technical skills to keep the numbers straight.
They got gallons mixed up for litres. (A factor of 4.54 to 1 )
They couldn't keep the fact that a 1000 lb. horse requires 20 to 22 lbs of hay per day and on a cold day -15 C that the hay requirement rose to 25-27lbs
The double standard
Initially the hearings were scheduled for March, 15 and 16 th. however requiring more time the hearings were adjourned and commenced on Thursday March 18, and concluded at 3:30 pm. on Friday March 19 (exactly 4 weeks to the day that my 32 horses were needlessly seized and removed by the OSPCA) The OSPCA did not have an accurate statement of account (costs) ready for the final day. The original statement has been revised many times by the Volunteer agent and full time security guard and yet on the last day despite having a week to prepare this statement, was still not available. Special considerations were made by the ACRB chair to accommodate the OSPCA to submit their "costs" on Monday March 22, 2010 after the hearings were closed. Monday came and went, as did Tuesday and on Wednesday March 24th. 2010 @ 3:09 pm.the OSPCA agent submitted an updated statement. This statement has now been submitted to the ACRB chair directly without my chance to question the statement. And there are errors and omissions. There are numerous submissions that are of particular concern.
1. The invoices are not signed
2. The invoices contain GST charges yet are lacking GST registration numbers
3. There is missing contact information such as address and phone numbers
4. Three such invoices appear to be derived from emails.
5. Invoice #00130 or Appeal Board Exhibit# 24G - Feb. 19 to Feb. 26 claims 31 horses on the property yet there were 32
On Feb 19, interestingly only 4 horses were moved (in 6 hours- a testament to the incompetence ) to the foster farm in question, yet 31 horses are billed.
6. The invoice #00131 Appeal Board Exhibit# 24E Feb. 27 to March 6 claims 31 horses on the property yet there were 29
There is no mention of who will cover the costs of Agent Higgins whom allowed 3 junior stallions to be pastured with their "mothers and sisters" for a period of at least 7 days according to the OSPCA records.
Who or what agency is responsible to pregnancy check all mares and fillies and abort all newly conceived potentially inbred offspring.
7. The OSPCA charges $260.00 for a volunteer agents time.
8. The Agent in charge of the removal has submitted charges in excess of $2000.00 from an Transport company that charged travelling time of 8 hours when the whole relocation of 4-5 kilometers should have been done by a competent local company in 2-3 hours
Daily Care;
The OSPCA was originally charging $20:00 per day per animal ....$620:00 per month X 32 animals = $19,840.00 per month for volunteers to feed donated hay on a donated farm. My costs per day were $35:00 - $40.00 for hay
These amounts were changed during the Board hearing to $8:00 per day payable to the farm property owner. The invoices submitted are highly suspect. Is the OSPCA transferring the responsibility of the potentially inbred horses to the farm property owners?
Notwithstanding the horses didn't need to be moved in the first place.
During the week of Board hearings it was revealed that the Volunteer Agent, Agent in charge of the seizure and removal whom self admittedly has no experience or training in transporting animals did transport and co-mingle 3 three stallions for a period of 7 days with their "mothers and sisters"
Transportation;
The agent in charge has submitted invoices for a transport company from Mount Albert, Ontario.
An agent whom self admittedly has no training, education nor experience in caring for or handling, transporting horses.
This same agent therefore was lacking the requisite knowledge to be able to determine that the animals were in distress. Yet he was able to remove them without the approval of the Chief Inspector and Senior Inspector. Which raises the questions.
Who is running the OSPCA?
Where is the chain of command?
Where is the accountability for this independent police force ?
In my case of; OSPCA vs.(Name Edited)Well actually it should be; ADHS vs. (Name Edited) (since the OSPCA did not authorize the removal) The removal was done by the Alliston District Humane Society (ADHS) Whom immediate advertised "34 Horses seized in Adjala, donations sought"
The ADHS is building a Humane Society building commencing this April and this seizure is being used to request donations and bring attention to this project. This was not a matter of animal welfare but revenue generation
There was and is nothing wrong with my horses.
In fact, I used photographic evidence and statements and notes provided by the media, the OSPCA veterinarian , and from the OSPCA agents themselves in my testimony.
A person aggrieved by the OSPCA that has been served an order or has had animals removed, has but 5 days to appeal to the Animal Care Review Board. If the appeal is not made in time then the person has to appeal directly to the OSPCA and navigate through the multi layers of bureaucracy. There is no guarantee of their appeal as the OSPCA has no obligation to the person.
If the person fails to appeal by either process they stand and will to lose their ownership and property.
From the beginning of this event the Alliston District Humane Society has been "taking orders" (maintaining a list) from individuals whom are interested in acquiring my horses at a price starting at $500 per animal. A sizeable windfall no doubt.
I did initiate the appeal process in time and did attend and represent myself at the Board hearings.
It became readily apparent that the agents didn't have the technical skills to keep the numbers straight.
They got gallons mixed up for litres. (A factor of 4.54 to 1 )
They couldn't keep the fact that a 1000 lb. horse requires 20 to 22 lbs of hay per day and on a cold day -15 C that the hay requirement rose to 25-27lbs
The double standard
Initially the hearings were scheduled for March, 15 and 16 th. however requiring more time the hearings were adjourned and commenced on Thursday March 18, and concluded at 3:30 pm. on Friday March 19 (exactly 4 weeks to the day that my 32 horses were needlessly seized and removed by the OSPCA) The OSPCA did not have an accurate statement of account (costs) ready for the final day. The original statement has been revised many times by the Volunteer agent and full time security guard and yet on the last day despite having a week to prepare this statement, was still not available. Special considerations were made by the ACRB chair to accommodate the OSPCA to submit their "costs" on Monday March 22, 2010 after the hearings were closed. Monday came and went, as did Tuesday and on Wednesday March 24th. 2010 @ 3:09 pm.the OSPCA agent submitted an updated statement. This statement has now been submitted to the ACRB chair directly without my chance to question the statement. And there are errors and omissions. There are numerous submissions that are of particular concern.
1. The invoices are not signed
2. The invoices contain GST charges yet are lacking GST registration numbers
3. There is missing contact information such as address and phone numbers
4. Three such invoices appear to be derived from emails.
5. Invoice #00130 or Appeal Board Exhibit# 24G - Feb. 19 to Feb. 26 claims 31 horses on the property yet there were 32
On Feb 19, interestingly only 4 horses were moved (in 6 hours- a testament to the incompetence ) to the foster farm in question, yet 31 horses are billed.
6. The invoice #00131 Appeal Board Exhibit# 24E Feb. 27 to March 6 claims 31 horses on the property yet there were 29
There is no mention of who will cover the costs of Agent Higgins whom allowed 3 junior stallions to be pastured with their "mothers and sisters" for a period of at least 7 days according to the OSPCA records.
Who or what agency is responsible to pregnancy check all mares and fillies and abort all newly conceived potentially inbred offspring.
7. The OSPCA charges $260.00 for a volunteer agents time.
8. The Agent in charge of the removal has submitted charges in excess of $2000.00 from an Transport company that charged travelling time of 8 hours when the whole relocation of 4-5 kilometers should have been done by a competent local company in 2-3 hours
Daily Care;
The OSPCA was originally charging $20:00 per day per animal ....$620:00 per month X 32 animals = $19,840.00 per month for volunteers to feed donated hay on a donated farm. My costs per day were $35:00 - $40.00 for hay
These amounts were changed during the Board hearing to $8:00 per day payable to the farm property owner. The invoices submitted are highly suspect. Is the OSPCA transferring the responsibility of the potentially inbred horses to the farm property owners?
Notwithstanding the horses didn't need to be moved in the first place.
During the week of Board hearings it was revealed that the Volunteer Agent, Agent in charge of the seizure and removal whom self admittedly has no experience or training in transporting animals did transport and co-mingle 3 three stallions for a period of 7 days with their "mothers and sisters"
Transportation;
The agent in charge has submitted invoices for a transport company from Mount Albert, Ontario.
An agent whom self admittedly has no training, education nor experience in caring for or handling, transporting horses.
This same agent therefore was lacking the requisite knowledge to be able to determine that the animals were in distress. Yet he was able to remove them without the approval of the Chief Inspector and Senior Inspector. Which raises the questions.
Who is running the OSPCA?
Where is the chain of command?
Where is the accountability for this independent police force ?
In my case of; OSPCA vs.(Name Edited)Well actually it should be; ADHS vs. (Name Edited) (since the OSPCA did not authorize the removal) The removal was done by the Alliston District Humane Society (ADHS) Whom immediate advertised "34 Horses seized in Adjala, donations sought"
The ADHS is building a Humane Society building commencing this April and this seizure is being used to request donations and bring attention to this project. This was not a matter of animal welfare but revenue generation
There was and is nothing wrong with my horses.
In fact, I used photographic evidence and statements and notes provided by the media, the OSPCA veterinarian , and from the OSPCA agents themselves in my testimony.
Reply by Sixhorses
March 27, 2010 10:08AM
So,
Am I correct in reading that this aggrieved party was simply maurauded by the OSPCA/AHS for absolutely no apparent reason? That a bunch of officials/volunteers just showed up and started removing perfectly well-cared for animals from this property for no reason whatsoever?
Wow! Isn't is strange how far apart these agencies run. I've heard of other cases where corpses and walking skeletons, were barely enough to illicit an OSPCA/ HS response.
I can well imagine that there were mix-ups in a seizure of that size and nature.
Let's hope that truth prevails.
sixhorses(Jayne)
Reply by crazyacres5
March 27, 2010 10:34AM
I can only imagine the chaos of a seizure that size, by all mean's make sure that all your T's are crossed and i's dotted, but dont try and say the techniqcal error's in invoicing somehow excuses the fact that people with a well trained eye in working with horses as their lively hood cant recognize a horse in trouble, be interesting to see the written evaluation's on the Humane Society's part as well the Vet reports on assesment of these horses, bet it isn't pretty.. I too am the sort that tend's to beleive , where there's smoke there's fire .even if a smolder..
Reply by Gruff Pastures
March 27, 2010 12:58PM
-no mention of the vet who recommended the horses removal (which is what led to the removal). I would take his/her opinion over that of the aggrieved horse owner.
-spca agent does not need to be a specialist in horse transport... a horse transport company was used, right?
-his other points mean nothing. Sounds like he's grasping at straws!! Of course he's going to say what an awesome caregiver he was, how wrong it was and how he is the victim here, he's not going to admit he didn't feed his horses and they were skinny and stunted.
have you seen these horses with your own eyes yet, P2C?
-spca agent does not need to be a specialist in horse transport... a horse transport company was used, right?
-his other points mean nothing. Sounds like he's grasping at straws!! Of course he's going to say what an awesome caregiver he was, how wrong it was and how he is the victim here, he's not going to admit he didn't feed his horses and they were skinny and stunted.
have you seen these horses with your own eyes yet, P2C?
Reply by p2c3d2
March 27, 2010 01:36PM
Yes, I went and saw the horses. Couldn't say that any of them looked to be in distress. There was lots of hay out in the fields, and my first thought was that if you had to pay for the hay you wouldn't waste so much, but be that as it may, they had lots of feed and I didn't see anything that would have set my alarms off. Some of them appeared to be on the thin side, but not skinny. I personally like a horse that has a good layer of fat if they are out 24/7, but there were no protruding ribs or spines.
The whole colt issue raises questions. I believe that there are too many stallions out there that would make excellent geldings. Being a beef cattle farmer, we put on elastics on the day of birth. They have no pain, no trauma and I have no bulls other than the ones I actually buy and bring on the property. I like that process and it's really too bad that you can't do that with colts. But I saw the other farm, and for the life of me, I can't see where he would have had them seperated. Maybe I missed something.
What I do know is that there are too many questions about the whole case. He was being charged an astronomical amount of money for field board and then it got adjusted. If the ASPCA gets to keep the horses, will he still be liable for the costs and will they be able to sell the horses and keep the money? Why did it costs so much to transport the horses? The places are not that far apart. I'm too old and too cynical to believe that there isn't something going on here. Rules are rules, and if he had to have his invoices in by a certain date, then the rules should have applied to the ASPCA as well. As soon as exceptions are made, then the entire process becomes corrupted. This type of proceeding must be transparent and without any reason to question. That's the way I see it.
The whole colt issue raises questions. I believe that there are too many stallions out there that would make excellent geldings. Being a beef cattle farmer, we put on elastics on the day of birth. They have no pain, no trauma and I have no bulls other than the ones I actually buy and bring on the property. I like that process and it's really too bad that you can't do that with colts. But I saw the other farm, and for the life of me, I can't see where he would have had them seperated. Maybe I missed something.
What I do know is that there are too many questions about the whole case. He was being charged an astronomical amount of money for field board and then it got adjusted. If the ASPCA gets to keep the horses, will he still be liable for the costs and will they be able to sell the horses and keep the money? Why did it costs so much to transport the horses? The places are not that far apart. I'm too old and too cynical to believe that there isn't something going on here. Rules are rules, and if he had to have his invoices in by a certain date, then the rules should have applied to the ASPCA as well. As soon as exceptions are made, then the entire process becomes corrupted. This type of proceeding must be transparent and without any reason to question. That's the way I see it.
Reply by Gruff Pastures
March 27, 2010 06:52PM
Here is my take on it, for what it's worth:
I don't see the ADHS as trying to pull a fast one by costing out their expenses. If those horses are being fed donated hay, it still has value. If someone were to donate 100 sm sqs for example, that's $400 worth of hay. Someone may donate his time but he is still worth $xx per hour. Make sense?
And as far as the trailering goes, that sounds like about $65 per horse. That does not sound unreasonable to me. I also do not believe that it would have been an easy task to round up and trailer 32 unhandled horses, for either the hauling company or the original owner with his self proclaimed magical abilities with these horses. (remember, in his own words, he "speaks the language of equus", although he must have missed the "I'm hungry" translation)
I also believe that you need to take what Original Owner says with a grain of salt. He is saying what he needs to say to get his horses back.
He is complaining about the "process" not being proper, and he is trying to make the current caregiver seem incompetent, both strategies to try to get his horses back, but no mention that he was not feeding them properly. At one point he even said TWH's are supposed to look like that.
He is indicating that he knows exactly how much hay a horse requires and yet he did not feed it to them. People were driving by his farm and phoning in complaints about the skinny horses having no hay...and this has been going on for years. He is not a victim of corrupt SPCA officials who are out to get him for no reason.
I guess we will have to wait and see how it plays out but I for one hope he does not get his horses back.
I don't see the ADHS as trying to pull a fast one by costing out their expenses. If those horses are being fed donated hay, it still has value. If someone were to donate 100 sm sqs for example, that's $400 worth of hay. Someone may donate his time but he is still worth $xx per hour. Make sense?
And as far as the trailering goes, that sounds like about $65 per horse. That does not sound unreasonable to me. I also do not believe that it would have been an easy task to round up and trailer 32 unhandled horses, for either the hauling company or the original owner with his self proclaimed magical abilities with these horses. (remember, in his own words, he "speaks the language of equus", although he must have missed the "I'm hungry" translation)
I also believe that you need to take what Original Owner says with a grain of salt. He is saying what he needs to say to get his horses back.
He is complaining about the "process" not being proper, and he is trying to make the current caregiver seem incompetent, both strategies to try to get his horses back, but no mention that he was not feeding them properly. At one point he even said TWH's are supposed to look like that.
He is indicating that he knows exactly how much hay a horse requires and yet he did not feed it to them. People were driving by his farm and phoning in complaints about the skinny horses having no hay...and this has been going on for years. He is not a victim of corrupt SPCA officials who are out to get him for no reason.
I guess we will have to wait and see how it plays out but I for one hope he does not get his horses back.
Reply by crazyacres5
March 28, 2010 12:16AM
I have to agree GF, Like I said before , we have been on the receiving end of these horses removed from their owner's as voluntary fostering, and even though we dont submit a bill for their care, I can"t express to you the countless hours of care, special feeding need's to help re built lost body mass, watchful vigal while worming in small doses to prevent blockages and colic, long distance call's, the list goes on and on when you have (1 or 2 ) horses in your care amongst your herd, nor do we submit a bill for feed, it's one of the reason's we are able to take horses here through out the year, because we arent under feed bills and are fortunate enough between a couple of places to grow and work enough feed from the ground in excess... but if we to do an itemized billing account of time and money for the care of these horse's.. I assure you it would be staggering !!!!!! so 30 + horses, I cant imagine the cost.
In every single one of these horse seizures, the owner's always jump up and down and shout injustice !!! the Humane Society has stolen their horses for NO REASON, not one time, have they been in agreement that they are in over the head;s and their horses are paying to price with their health and well being, or thank the people who jump in to try and help save the animal.
I'm going to have Stoney put a link up to show you one of our recent mares that came back to us as she and Maureen were very familiar with this one in particular. here's the background on this horse, and I want you as bi -standers to use your own judgement call. The mare belonged to us here and I had had sold her to "Friend's " on about 25 miles away in the end of April 2008, then by July of the same year I was in need of a well broke gentle horse for my nephew to novice barrel race and show on, so knowing they werent using her at the point, borrowed her back until oct.. when we picked her up for the summer months, we were told she had been put in with a feild wild Canadian Stallion and could possibly be in foal as were the rest of the horses on the property.
Returned her back to them in Oct and continued on with a busy 2008/2009 winter !!! early in April 2009, so just one year since we sold her and 6 months since we seen her last, the Humane Society was contacted on visual reports of the horses being in terrible condition, inevidably it was discovered that she was once our mare and we were asked if we would take on responsiblity for the mare and her recovery here..we said .. YES.... she had been assessed at approx. 350 lbs, under weight !!! and in full term pregnancy , birthing was iminant, severely parasitic, cronic rain rot , bacterial eye infection, urinary tract infection, and a thru and thru penetration hole straight up thru the front right hoof...
I can't tell you the horrific pain in our hearts the day she was backed off the trailer here and we seen the state of her, it was devastating, my husband chokes up over nothing, he's a very direct " lets get at her and fix this up kinda guy" he could hardly speak, and only held her weak head in his chest ,apologizing to her, she was shaking in her steps, but trucked it right to the barn, hung a right and headed into her old stall. We started her immediatly on a special building feed in small but frequent feed amounts, small dose worming, and had the farrier out the following morning to see what we could do with the foot, and crossed our fingers that she would give us some time before delivery to build her body back some strength !!! Well, no suck luck !! we found her down in the barn on her 5th day day and in labour, Thank God my husband was home as well and it was a nightmarish struggle to help her deliver baby, she was so weak and with the Vet's help and a IV line in the stabalize her , she delivered baby Hunter, he too was very sluggish and weak and approx. 1/3 of his supposed weight under, he had huge bone mass , but just skin stretched over it, first time I ever seen a boney foal born. The vet told us then , that this mare had give everything she had over the hard winter to her baby to keep it alive in her , rather then throw it or absorb it. She couldnt get back to her feet, and it took all of us behind her butt, at her head, and literally under her to get her up, then we belly slung her to the rafter to keep her shaking body up. Little Hunter couldnt get up on his own either, so every hour on the hour , we went out and stood him up to her utter and allowed him to nurse as we were affraid given his weaken state already , that a replacement feed would only hurt him, on hour 32, he stood on his own and made way to his very worried but very co-operative Mamma, every hour we went into the barn, she would hear us coming and call us frantic to hurry up and get her boy up . Both have survived and its been a long year in recovery for her, but she fought hard to stay.
The people she was seized from, to this day , insist the horse was stollen from them, there wasnt a thing wrong with her, and had the ball's to phone and ask if we would like to buy her back, they thought she with a foal at her side would be worth at least 2,000.00 would we like to buy her !!!! And still tell folks in the communtiy that the Humane Society had no reason to set foot or seizure on the property... They dont get it !! They never will. And Again the OSPCA were A*&H*&#S'S in the story according to the owner's. The first 3 pictures I post are of her here with us and practising barrels , the rest I dont have to explain to anyone owning horses or lovers of them even... If they would have disputed the seizure and requested the horses back and I had to do an itemized bill , in my estimation it would be approx. 4,000.00 in -Time, Special feeding, Vetting, Farrier and Board, for the first couple of months. Thats 1 horse and a newborn foal, think about the true cost of 30+ horse with the transportation as well !!!!
In every single one of these horse seizures, the owner's always jump up and down and shout injustice !!! the Humane Society has stolen their horses for NO REASON, not one time, have they been in agreement that they are in over the head;s and their horses are paying to price with their health and well being, or thank the people who jump in to try and help save the animal.
I'm going to have Stoney put a link up to show you one of our recent mares that came back to us as she and Maureen were very familiar with this one in particular. here's the background on this horse, and I want you as bi -standers to use your own judgement call. The mare belonged to us here and I had had sold her to "Friend's " on about 25 miles away in the end of April 2008, then by July of the same year I was in need of a well broke gentle horse for my nephew to novice barrel race and show on, so knowing they werent using her at the point, borrowed her back until oct.. when we picked her up for the summer months, we were told she had been put in with a feild wild Canadian Stallion and could possibly be in foal as were the rest of the horses on the property.
Returned her back to them in Oct and continued on with a busy 2008/2009 winter !!! early in April 2009, so just one year since we sold her and 6 months since we seen her last, the Humane Society was contacted on visual reports of the horses being in terrible condition, inevidably it was discovered that she was once our mare and we were asked if we would take on responsiblity for the mare and her recovery here..we said .. YES.... she had been assessed at approx. 350 lbs, under weight !!! and in full term pregnancy , birthing was iminant, severely parasitic, cronic rain rot , bacterial eye infection, urinary tract infection, and a thru and thru penetration hole straight up thru the front right hoof...
I can't tell you the horrific pain in our hearts the day she was backed off the trailer here and we seen the state of her, it was devastating, my husband chokes up over nothing, he's a very direct " lets get at her and fix this up kinda guy" he could hardly speak, and only held her weak head in his chest ,apologizing to her, she was shaking in her steps, but trucked it right to the barn, hung a right and headed into her old stall. We started her immediatly on a special building feed in small but frequent feed amounts, small dose worming, and had the farrier out the following morning to see what we could do with the foot, and crossed our fingers that she would give us some time before delivery to build her body back some strength !!! Well, no suck luck !! we found her down in the barn on her 5th day day and in labour, Thank God my husband was home as well and it was a nightmarish struggle to help her deliver baby, she was so weak and with the Vet's help and a IV line in the stabalize her , she delivered baby Hunter, he too was very sluggish and weak and approx. 1/3 of his supposed weight under, he had huge bone mass , but just skin stretched over it, first time I ever seen a boney foal born. The vet told us then , that this mare had give everything she had over the hard winter to her baby to keep it alive in her , rather then throw it or absorb it. She couldnt get back to her feet, and it took all of us behind her butt, at her head, and literally under her to get her up, then we belly slung her to the rafter to keep her shaking body up. Little Hunter couldnt get up on his own either, so every hour on the hour , we went out and stood him up to her utter and allowed him to nurse as we were affraid given his weaken state already , that a replacement feed would only hurt him, on hour 32, he stood on his own and made way to his very worried but very co-operative Mamma, every hour we went into the barn, she would hear us coming and call us frantic to hurry up and get her boy up . Both have survived and its been a long year in recovery for her, but she fought hard to stay.
The people she was seized from, to this day , insist the horse was stollen from them, there wasnt a thing wrong with her, and had the ball's to phone and ask if we would like to buy her back, they thought she with a foal at her side would be worth at least 2,000.00 would we like to buy her !!!! And still tell folks in the communtiy that the Humane Society had no reason to set foot or seizure on the property... They dont get it !! They never will. And Again the OSPCA were A*&H*&#S'S in the story according to the owner's. The first 3 pictures I post are of her here with us and practising barrels , the rest I dont have to explain to anyone owning horses or lovers of them even... If they would have disputed the seizure and requested the horses back and I had to do an itemized bill , in my estimation it would be approx. 4,000.00 in -Time, Special feeding, Vetting, Farrier and Board, for the first couple of months. Thats 1 horse and a newborn foal, think about the true cost of 30+ horse with the transportation as well !!!!
Reply by stonehedge
March 28, 2010 08:30AM
Hey Guys.... Just before I head off to bed after a hellish nightshift.... here are CA5's pictures of that dear horse Handy and her lovely babe Hunter....
Sad but true I saw her in the flesh myself a few days after she came back home to CA's.... broke my heart ... some people just need to be found after dark alone on a country road if you know what I mean.....
[www.facebook.com]
Have a good day ... one more night for me before a little R&R on my days off....
By the Way everyone it was CA5's birthday Friday....
Happy BIrthday you old hag May you have many more....
Love ya,
Stoney.
Sad but true I saw her in the flesh myself a few days after she came back home to CA's.... broke my heart ... some people just need to be found after dark alone on a country road if you know what I mean.....
[www.facebook.com]
Have a good day ... one more night for me before a little R&R on my days off....
By the Way everyone it was CA5's birthday Friday....
Happy BIrthday you old hag
May you have many more....
Love ya,
Stoney.
Reply by crazyacres5
March 30, 2010 12:20AM
Thanks Stoney !!! well these pics might help explain why I'm not a very sympathetic ear when it comes to owner's of seizure horses and their plea's of injustice towards them... have had way to many of these horses thru my gates over the year's and all with former owner's who never did a thing wrong !!!!
Reply by Gruff Pastures
March 30, 2010 08:19AM
This case seems to be less about the condition of the horses, and more about whether or not the SPCA had the right to remove them.
Reply by p2c3d2
April 3, 2010 07:26AM
The decision has been published. I can't put the entire thing in here, because it's 42 pages long. I'm sure it's posted somewhere, but I can't find it. Essentially, it boils down to 3 items.
1. The stallions (4) are to be returned to the appellant at no cost to the appellant, provided they are maintained as per veterinary directions.
2. The 28 mares and geldings are to be returned on the conditions of: a) they are to be fed and watered as per veterinary direction and b) electricity is to be provided to the property to ensure the horses have an ongoing water supply.
3. The appellant shall pay the removal costs, reduced to $2,362.50 which is $9,141.02 less the portion of the stallions which is 1/8 of the total costs. (I don't understand their math here but I was trying to make sense of it at 6am and not printing it out and waking the whole house, I'll print it later and then read through it)
The court did reduce the daily board charges to $8./day.
So for now, that's the end of it, if he complies with the court orders. It's really too bad that these people didn't/don't work in Latchford to prevent what happened up there.
1. The stallions (4) are to be returned to the appellant at no cost to the appellant, provided they are maintained as per veterinary directions.
2. The 28 mares and geldings are to be returned on the conditions of: a) they are to be fed and watered as per veterinary direction and b) electricity is to be provided to the property to ensure the horses have an ongoing water supply.
3. The appellant shall pay the removal costs, reduced to $2,362.50 which is $9,141.02 less the portion of the stallions which is 1/8 of the total costs. (I don't understand their math here but I was trying to make sense of it at 6am and not printing it out and waking the whole house, I'll print it later and then read through it)
The court did reduce the daily board charges to $8./day.
So for now, that's the end of it, if he complies with the court orders. It's really too bad that these people didn't/don't work in Latchford to prevent what happened up there.
Reply by Giantpony
April 5, 2010 08:42PM
p2c3d2,
Any idea where the decision has been published? I've had a few people ask me and since you already know, I thought you might be willing to share with the board
GP
Any idea where the decision has been published? I've had a few people ask me and since you already know, I thought you might be willing to share with the board
GP
Reply by Gruff Pastures
April 6, 2010 08:29AM
So I'm assuming the seizure was found to be in order (legal) for the herd of mares and geldings (28), and he can have them back if he pays the removal and care costs first. Then he has to follow vet orders on feeding. Otherwise he would've got them all back at the cost of the SPCA.
The costs for removal and care of the studs is being subtracted because their seizure was found not to be legal, that's why the cost is being reduced by 1/8 (4 studs out of 32 total horses).
Essentially he is being given another chance. Too bad for the horses!! Here's hoping he can't come up with the money to get them back.
The costs for removal and care of the studs is being subtracted because their seizure was found not to be legal, that's why the cost is being reduced by 1/8 (4 studs out of 32 total horses).
Essentially he is being given another chance. Too bad for the horses!! Here's hoping he can't come up with the money to get them back.
Reply by crazyacres5
April 6, 2010 09:27AM
Touche Gruff, fingers are crossed here that there's been an epiphany with the owner and that the horses will be Okay !!!!
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